| User | Post |
Quanta
 
   
  
 
 
Since: 04-09-02
From: Somewhere
Since last post: 7748 days
Last activity: 7500 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 11:36 AM | |
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Hey Sasami. I e-mailed Gravity regarding this. Their stance is basically this: They basically disapprove of you making the exploits and bugs public knowledge rather than trying to get into contact via e-mail or phone (the preferred methods by them) to let them know about it. They also disapprove of the exp viewer and such, as you already know, because they're "emulators". After examining the definition of "emulate" from dictionary.com:
Computer Science. To imitate the function of (another system), as by modifications to hardware or software that allow the imitating system to accept the same data, execute the same programs, and achieve the same results as the imitated system.
I've come to the conclusion that the exp viewer and other programs are emulators. The exp viewer is an emulator because it is a program that accepts the same data as the in-game exp bars get and puts them out in numerical format, and despite the fact that each is displayed in a different way, the result is exactly the same as what is already implemented in-game--a visual display of the total experience that one has acquired for that particular level. The Warp to Save program is even more of an emulator--it mimics the Acolyte's Teleport skill or the Wing of Butterfly item, but there is no penalty to using it. Did you ever ask them if you could do these things before you started working on them? I don't think you have, and if you did, they said no. And when they told you to stop making/releasing the exp viewer, you disregarded it. And here you are, going against their wishes, just like Artforz, Arsenic, and every other hacker in RO. You say you want what's best for RO, but how can you do it effectively when you don't respect the wishes of the company that makes the game. In the end, they determine RO's final fate, and for that, you should at LEAST respect their wishes to keep 3rd-party programs and hacks out of the public eye.
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Raveus
 
Since: 05-03-02
Since last post: 7987 days
Last activity: 7887 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 02:03 PM | |
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Of course, we'll just ignore the fact that the in-game exp display basically beaks UI rules regarding feedback and granularity 
Sorry, you won't get me to agree. The exp viewer is a UI issue, not a functionality change, in all essence. And it's sad how many programs suffer from poor UI design. In this, at least, she has done them something along the lines of a favor, whether they're willing to accept it as such or not. If the /exp viewer/ were such a prob, then perhaps they should hasten along the release of nProtect for e-beta... and, wow, it would take care of all of that other stuff that actually does create functionality changes which are true malicious exploits.
Oh, I understand that they're busy, and not only with e-beta, so expecting nProtect right now is unfair. Furthermore, I even understand that they're probably opposing all 3rd party progs because they don't have time to be judging which they can accept and which they can't. Most likely, in order to not have people crying foul when something they deem acceptable is rejected without even being looked at, due to a lack of time, they're simply being impartial. Then again, I'm not gravity, and I don't know.
Until you can say that gravity told you so, I think THAT kind of speculation isn't really needed, Quanta. They've said what they've said, and that's enough, and I don't see the need for trying to be nasty over it... and, imo, equating an exp viewer to what every other "hacker" in RO puts out is... being unnecessarily rude, when the issue is already decided.
· Raveus |
Quanta
Since: 04-09-02
From: Somewhere
Since last post: 7748 days
Last activity: 7500 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 03:05 PM | |
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Well actually, if you patch the exe with the viewer, it will change the UI if you remember. And it does change the functionality since we, as people, will interpret the exp-bars and the numerical data in a different way from each other. Currently, exp viewing functions as a bar/percentage representation, not as a displayed numerical value. You've also failed to notice that Sasami is thinking of releasing all the data she's collected pertaining to RO in an attempt to force Gravity's hand. Can you honestly say that it's the right thing to do? If you can, I can't help you.
You're probably right though--they can't decide what's good and what's bad at the moment, so it's best to oppose all the programs at once. But Gravity specifically told Sasami NOT to continue to release the viewer or any OTHER program for that matter, and yet here we are with about 3 or 4 newer versions that she's released. I mean, I can see Sasami's POV that it does no harm, but at the moment to say one program is good for use and another is bad for use is too hypocritical...otherwise, Item_Collector's auto-overcharge program wouldn't have been addressed and stopped so many months ago. I'm not saying that Sasami is making bad hacks, but to ignore the fact that she's been told to stop makes her just as bad as Artforz, Arsenic, or any other hacker since the same message would apply to EVERYBODY making hacks and externals. That's just with behaviour and whatnot though. Overall, Sasami is a saint compared to someone like Artforz.
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Makoto
Moderator
 
Since: 02-19-02
From: England
Since last post: 7775 days
Last activity: 7762 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 03:37 PM | |
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-.- Quanta, its not an emulator, an emulator mimics somthing else, it said in your description that it has to imitate the program, the exp viewer does not imitate ragnarok, if it is run by itself it has nothing to do with ragnarok, it is simply a modification, not an emulator
and Sasami already knows everything you said, the fact is that gravity doesnt know what there talking about, they cant understand english to save there lives
Sasami IS (or was) helping the RO community, the exp viewer was a benifit to the community, i dont care what Gravity says, they dont know whats good for them, if they did then ragnarok wouldnt have so many problems, everything Sasami has done is to there benifit, she acctually spoke to one of them. Oh, and she did ask, but they said they 'werent sure'
please stop this foolishness, Sasami has done nothing wrong, she gave her time and effot to help you, and she was screwd
Gravity doesnt respect or care for anything Sasami does, and so they dont deserve respect back
im upset by the fact that you have portraid Sasami in this way, you sound like Gravity has brain washed you into this, your just wrong, i cant even say anymore then that, and IMHO, you should apolagise to her |
Quanta
Since: 04-09-02
From: Somewhere
Since last post: 7748 days
Last activity: 7500 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 04:28 PM | |
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Makoto: I said that the exp viewer emulates a FUNCTION of RO rather than the client itself. It's not an emulator in the sense that it does everything the client does and more, but it DOES emulate RO's ability to display experience while outputting it in a different form.
The fact is, she's going about getting Gravity to cooperate in the wrong way--releasing the data that she has in mind (which I would assume are the exploits and bugs in the program) will harm the game. It's not how things should be done--forcing people to act whether they want to or not by harming them and everything they have is not right, plain and simple, and Sasami's words put across that it's EXACTLY what she's considering to do.
Yes, Sasami has been a great help to us all with everything she's done, but the fact remains that they told her to discontinue the viewer a WHILE ago, and she didn't listen. Despite her best intentions, THAT was her wrong, and if she's thinking of topping it, then there's nothing more I can do but hope that she considers the effect it'll have on a game she seems supportive of.
And if she had respected their wishes in the first place and stopped the exp viewer, we might not be in this mess. If she'd have listened to them, there'd be no exp viewer (a terrible shame, yes), but they MIGHT have listened to her. It's their game...to disrespect the game is to disrespect the company, and vice versa. Let them figure it out for themselves rather than we tell them what's good for them.
And sure...I'm sorry if Sasami feels that she's been screwed, but I cannot ignore the fact that she's ignored Gravity's wishes, or what she intends to do now that she's had enough. I've already done this exact same song and dance with RagnarokSource, and if you're trying to right a wrong with another wrong, then you need to get your head away from mathematics for a second and think about what you're actually doing.
Sorry though...I'm just trying to prevent catastrophe...I'd like to continue playing this game if I may, and the people at Gravity are the only ones right now that can bring to us the game Ragnarok Online...no one else can.
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Sasami
Goddess in Training
 
Since: 02-18-02
From: Back in texas! YAY! college sucked!
Rating: 10 (1030 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 04:40 PM | |
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| i have too much of a headache right now to do anything more than just skim this, but I have gotten 2 responses back from gravity, the first saying "we do not know if it is ok", the second saying "do not use emulator". Neither program is an emulator if you took the word for what it really means. You misconstrewed the defenition. I am pretty sure they though I was talking about a bot in the second email too because I think I mentioned them... i don't rmember though, it's all documented in my "history of the hacking of ragnarok" |
Makoto
Moderator
Since: 02-19-02
From: England
Since last post: 7775 days
Last activity: 7762 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 04:51 PM | |
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yes, like Sasami said, they never acctually said what she was doing is wrong, they THOUGHT she was, but thats not what it was, if you get my meaning :/
basicly, they missunderstood her, cos there english is rather poor
oh, and she said she was THINKING of doing that, not that she was definatly going to release the info.
also, having best intentions is the best thing anyone can do, if you do somthing wrong, but you ment well, i will always forgive you, if you do somthing wright, but you had dishonist intentions, then, IMO, your still a dishonist person
and if all you ment was to advice or ask Sasami to not realese the info, then you should have said that, your origanal post sounds as tho your slagging Sasami off, which isnt nice, and unlikely to get people to listen to your main point, sorry if this isnt want you ment, but this is what it sounded like, make your point more clear so people dont think your evil  |
Noiboi
 
Since: 04-17-02
From: uk
Since last post: 8002 days
Last activity: 7927 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 05:49 PM | |
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I e-mailed them about you aswell. Here's what they had to say.
Hello this is englishGM/Webmaster.
First of all we appreciate you for your great attention.
But frankly we don't want to involve with any incidents which spread rumors against Gravity and Ragnarok without reasonable proof.
Personally I've never talked with that person in Game but I remembered We warned her not to release/to produce illegal emulators.And Now she seems to threaten us with her latest hacks. We don't think she does do right thing at the moment.Even she forgets what the beta test means.
Still we are so sorry to hear that but we won't allow her to threaten us with ridiculous comments.
And if she does that she will pay for that.
And you mentioned Gravity seems too strict for the people who try to help it.But let's talk about that `HELP'.
So you think that help means realising illegal emulators without express permission? or Do you think that help means abusing and betraying Gravity only for their emotional troubles?Well We don't think so.
We think that HELP means let us know those informations personally(not realising) via Email or Phone by personal choice.
We are not strict about people but they make us too stubborn.
Anyway thank you for the concern.
If any bad situation occurs by this incident
we will get over it as soon as possible.
Have a nice day.
EnglishGM/Webmaster,
Gravity Corp.
(edited by Noiboi on 06-06-02 12:50 PM) |
Sasami
Goddess in Training
Since: 02-18-02
From: Back in texas! YAY! college sucked!
Rating: 10 (1030 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 06:14 PM | |
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Actually, i would expect a response like that. I'll hit each point
But frankly we don't want to involve with any incidents which spread rumors against Gravity and Ragnarok without reasonable proof.
we have more than enough proof to show any of what I said, I keep everything documented, but for the sake of professionalism I have not released any of the info to the public.
Personally I've never talked with that person in Game but I remembered We warned her not to release/to produce illegal emulators.And Now she seems to threaten us with her latest hacks. We don't think she does do right thing at the moment.Even she forgets what the beta test means.
I have not talked to them in game, she ignores me, but she was talking to my friend outside the game and wanted to see an exploit I had found and asked him to ask me to wait there for her, and I know for a fact she really asked. They have never asked me to stop distributing or making my programs, they have never warned me, they usually write an email back to me with something that is written as to make it unclear at all what they are saying, no deffinite answers. I know exactly what a beta test is, a beta test is the FINAL stage of the programming process where the final bugs are found and immediatly fixed, new things arn't supposed to be added, that's an alpha stage. Apparently gravity doesn't know what a beta is.
Still we are so sorry to hear that but we won't allow her to threaten us with ridiculous comments. And if she does that she will pay for that.
This is not a threat and is not ridiculous. I am not asking for anything in return if I do this, I am just stating I may or may not, and I'll let gravity clean up the situation if I did. And I highly doubt I would "pay" quite frankly gravity has taken a lacsidasical approach to anything, they don't care about the english market. They have never banned my account, they havn't gone after the bot creators which are far worse than anything i've done.
So you think that help means realising illegal emulators without express permission? or Do you think that help means abusing and betraying Gravity only for their emotional troubles?Well We don't think so.
We think that HELP means let us know those informations personally(not realising) via Email or Phone by personal choice.
I HAVE NOT WRITTEN A SINGLE EMULATOR! THE BOTS ARE EMULATORS! I WISH THEY WOULD MAKE CLEAR WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT! I have always had the feeling they think I made the bots. The only time I EVER touched a bot was when they first came out to find the easiest way to crash them. As for my other programs, they are non malicious in nature and there to fix gravities flaws. I will take them down when they write me an email and nicely ask me too. I have communicated with the head programmer, which I am sure they will again deny, and told him everything I know about how to fix the holes and problems in the game.
We are not strict about people but they make us too stubborn.
you are damn right they arn't strict about people! THEY RARELY BAN ANYONE FOR BOTTING OR USING HACKS! and if they do, it is for about a week.
If any bad situation occurs by this incident we will get over it as soon as possible.
translation: if something bad comes out of this to harm our reputation we will lie some more through our public relations department to cover our buts.
Have a nice day.
Something they put at the end of every letter to show the people that they "care" about how our day is going. Thank you for that wonderful gesture gravity!
(edited by Sasami on 06-06-02 01:28 PM)
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Musashi
Moderator
 
Since: 06-06-02
Since last post: 7998 days
Last activity: 7945 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 06:23 PM | |
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As a matter of fact.
Gravity can't even differentiate between an emulator and a 3rd party program.
They call all 3rd party programs emulators.
Try asking them about the screen shot taking program or maybe the autoheal program which send keystrokes to the game after detecting the values of the HP.
I bet they will tell you that is an emulator.
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Arsenic
 
Since: 04-12-02
From: Qc, Can
Since last post: 7480 days
Last activity: 7473 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 06:34 PM | |
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Exp Viewer is not an emulator....it's just an add-on, a third-party program, that makes modifications or add features to another software.
Bots are emulator, Windows MS-DOS is an emulator, ZSNES is an emulator, BnetD is an emulator, etc.
Oh, and let me say that this email sounds a bit suspicious to me...Gravity doesn't write english this good usually.
(edited by Arsenic on 06-06-02 01:34 PM) |
Sasami
Goddess in Training
Since: 02-18-02
From: Back in texas! YAY! college sucked!
Rating: 10 (1030 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 07:03 PM | |
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| i was actually thinking that same thing, it did sound pretty good. |
DaiSHi
Moderator
 
Since: 05-03-02
From: California
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 07:17 PM | |
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::shrug:: maybe they hired a new guy, since the rest of the staff is probably watching the world cup...
grav doesn't ban much, but they banned my leader for like a month when had done nothing worse than swear... i emailed them about my banned accounts shortly after that insane rollback awhile ago... no response... i nearly quit, but i started over for a third time... i don't get any appreciation from them... like i'm not wanted...
sasami, on the other hand, shows compassion and fairness that i doubt gravity would ever be able to duplicate... they just don't care
btw: i see the viewer as more of a mod than an emulator. it interprets the rom values the same way as the bar and whatnot, but returns a numerical representation rather than showing a graphical one. it gives no unfair advantage other than i know if i need to kill a poring or a munak to lvl up... it doesn't affect the game play of others... and it's been decided that it's not malicious.
gravity is too ignorant to understand and assess what goes on with sasami's mods. they're too quick to point when the language barrier gets in the way. they don't see that progies like this keep some people from quitting and make the game play more exciting. when we look at a bar... we don't know what gives 1%; when we see actual values, we feel more in control.. we can make smarter decisions. the info the bar gives me is too general...
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Loki: DaiSHi 47/34 swordman, H.O.L.Y.Merchant OC, Robbin'Hood 37/27 Thief
7267 exp and counting...
 Flower girls are the cutest... but not as cute as my Tina
(edited by DaiSHi on 06-06-02 02:30 PM) |
Chibi-Bar
Moderator
 
Since: 04-16-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7459 days
Last activity: 7416 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 07:22 PM | |
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I think they pick on Sasami cause she actually cared for RO.. and maybe to them.. they don't like that.. since everyone else is just playing.. but some of us are actually Testing.. and finding flaws (like we are suppose to) hmm.. not sure.. but I think they might be getting hit one to many with the alcohol.. that just me
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Chibi-Bar
Your Local Merchant on Chaos/Loki |
Sasami
Goddess in Training
Since: 02-18-02
From: Back in texas! YAY! college sucked!
Rating: 10 (1030 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 07:27 PM | |
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| *remembers one night when christy was drunk* |
DaiSHi
Moderator
Since: 05-03-02
From: California
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7367 days
Last activity: 7367 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 07:32 PM | |
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Originally posted by Sasami
*remembers one night when christy was drunk*
 eh, the koreans that i know of can take their liquor pretty well... unlike me, i turn red as rudolph, especially my ears 
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Loki: DaiSHi 47/34 swordman, H.O.L.Y.Merchant OC, Robbin'Hood 37/27 Thief
7363 exp and counting...
Flower girls are the cutest... but not as cute as my Tina |
Noiboi
Since: 04-17-02
From: uk
Since last post: 8002 days
Last activity: 7927 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 10:08 PM | |
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The e-mail is 100% genuin. Why would I fake it? Maybe Christy has been practicing her English or something.
And Windows isn't actually an MSDOS emulator. 95 and below are an MSDOS graphic interface, 98 was part graphic interface / part true OS. NT/2000/XP were true OS's |
Quanta
Since: 04-09-02
From: Somewhere
Since last post: 7748 days
Last activity: 7500 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 10:26 PM | |
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heh...it's another cut/paste job of Gravity's...I know because that's exactly what I got
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Chibi-Bar
Moderator
Since: 04-16-02
Rating: 10 (400 pts)
Since last post: 7459 days
Last activity: 7416 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 10:28 PM | |
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sometimes I wonder if they are using "form letter" cause all these email are so similar.. 
maybe they are typing it in korean and then hit the translate button
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Chibi-Bar
Your Local Merchant on Chaos/Loki |
Musashi
Moderator
Since: 06-06-02
Since last post: 7998 days
Last activity: 7945 days
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| Posted on 06-06-02 11:57 PM | |
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Originally posted by Quanta
heh...it's another cut/paste job of Gravity's...I know because that's exactly what I got
you mean with the same spelling errors, punctuation errors and such?  |
| Thread closed